Software Spotlight

Michael Bernzweig (00:03.832)
Are you ready to unlock the secrets of B2B SaaS success? Tired of sifting through endless noise to find actionable insights that actually move the needle?

Welcome to Software Spotlight, your weekly deep dive into the transformative world of Software-as-a-Service. Your host is Michael Bernzweig, who in 1998 launched Software Oasis as one of the first platforms enabling businesses to download, license, and deploy software instantly across their networks with a single click. Today, Software Oasis has evolved into one of the leading communities where businesses find top tech consultants across the USA and Canada.

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I'd like to welcome everyone to today's edition of the Software Spotlight. Today, we're pleased to be welcoming Daniel Andor, founder of Duran, a leading product strategy and design studio. With over a decade of experience, Daniel excels in UX design and product discovery, helping ambitious founders create intuitive digital products that resonate with users. So with that, Daniel, welcome to the podcast.

Daniel (00:33.7)
Thanks, glad to be here.

Michael Bernzweig (00:35.522)
Yeah, no, it's wonderful to have you on this week. And I know a lot of different founders and executives are listening to the podcast and a lot of companies that are in the SaaS space and other product spaces listening. I was hoping, you know, for anyone that may not be familiar with Duran, if you could

give our audience just a little bit of your backstory of how you got to where you are and what Doran is all about.

Daniel (01:07.674)
Sure. After downloading Photoshop from Torrent, because this is what we've done in Romania back then, I had a chance to start working on something that we could call today a startup studio. So basically they had a bunch of products in-house that they developed and started to see which works and which got traction. And I was fortunate enough to work with some very interesting and smart people that...

helped me develop a somewhat product sense and UX sense and how we'll build products and what to look for and how to talk with customers and how to gather feedback from them and actually build whatever they would need and would be helpful for them. Not in the sense that you build what they ask for, but you actually build something that's useful for them and they would pay for. So, yeah, I spent a couple of years there. It was...

six, seven years that laid the foundation for everything that I've done after that. And from there, I moved to another company. I worked there for around a year, then to freelancing and had the chance to work with some companies from Germany. And almost four years ago, I started to run, mostly wanting to get back to the whole startup scene and working with early stage companies.

It's kind of the same time when I started to mentor founders, early stage founders in incubators and accelerators. So spent some of the time there trying to learn and give back. And yeah, kind of this is how we have to run nowadays.

Michael Bernzweig (02:43.798)
Interesting, I know, and it makes a lot of sense. It's obviously a journey that resonates, I'm sure, with a lot of individuals. So as far as your journey, what kind of inspired you to found the company? Like what was it that, you know, at one point changed the trajectory of where you were heading in your career?

Daniel (03:07.13)
Everything starts from a pain, right? It was somewhat a burnout after some projects and I just felt that I wanted to do things slightly different. I had in a way my own, it's not necessarily my own alone, but it has this weird idea of how UX combines with product and how they can form something together and actually deliver a lot of value in the end. And if you see it...

in companies and as a freelancer, was mostly two things that are somewhat separate. So you have the designer who's doing the interfaces most of the time, and you have the product person who's doing research and is doing, I don't know, a lot of other stuff. And how I envision this thing, it's almost like the symbiotic something that lives together. You have a UX designer and the product, something that delivers value for both the business and the end customer.

But in order to do that, you actually have to have a knowledge about the context in which you work in. So you have to understand what's the field you play in. You have to have a way to test new stuff. And this is where we started to add a lot of frameworks and ideas from this whole lean movement of prototyping, testing, collecting customer feedback as fast as possible. And then we moved to design. yeah, kind of this is how the whole thing came together.

I had this idea of combining these two and hopefully it's good enough for some of the founders we work with.

Michael Bernzweig (04:43.076)
So as we're getting started, mean, if you could give me an example, I think this will help the audience kind of wrap their head around everything that you're doing over there. Can you give an example of maybe a recent or even an older project that you worked on and the type of organization that you were working with and kind of what life looked like before and after you completed the project for them? yeah, that would be helpful.

Daniel (04:48.846)
Mm-hmm.

Daniel (05:08.602)
Sure, sure, sure, sure. We work very well with two type of clients. This is how I call them. I have two type of clients. We have something that I call the professional or the expert or the domain expert. And they are coming with the knowledge from the problem that they, in a way, worked in for quite some years. So they really understand the context. They really understand the problem. And they want to launch a first version of a product that solves the problem that they know really well.

For them, it's quite easy because they have the problem knowledge, they have access to customers or future customers, and we help them flesh out of this is how the first version of the product would look like, these are the features, these are the flows we can test with possible customers to see if we are on the right track. And we can design and come put everything together up to the point they go to development team or they have a developers in-house that can...

work on that and develop it and launch it. That's the first bucket. The second bucket, which we have, I would say most of them, is founders that are around the pre-seed seed stage. They have some customers. They are maybe on the market for a year or a year and a half. They start to have some revenue and there is a new influx of customers that are, in a way, the early majority if we're talking about the, what's the, that graph.

And they have higher expectations, obviously. They are not that open to risk and trying out new stuff. They want products that just work and can deliver. And when they come, they start to complain about a couple of things, right? So they start to complain about the product not being easy to use. They start to ask for features and sometimes those features actually exist in the product, but they can't find them. Or if they find them, they don't know how to use them.

Michael Bernzweig (06:38.2)
Right?

Daniel (07:07.308)
So they end up churning and then basically our clients, when they come to us, they usually have these kinds of problems. Customer feedback, which is not very positive. It's actually negative because they can't really use the product. Customers asking for features that are in the product, but they can't find them. A higher churn rate than before because people come test, it's not working. They leave. And another thing which ended up being as, because they didn't have any kind of foundation in place.

Michael Bernzweig (07:31.332)
and

Daniel (07:35.896)
development time or learning time, it's quite high. So it takes quite some time to launch something and get our feedback and see if it's working or if it's not working. So when we come in, we try to collect as much of this information as possible. That means we check whatever data they have, customer feedback, analytics. If it's necessary, we run some interviews with existing clients or past clients to basically...

gather as much information as possible about the existing problems in the product. We also do UX audits from time to time. From there, we can have a good understanding of the challenges that are in the product. Then we can come up with some solution ideas. We test those with customers or people that fit the customer profile. We collect, again, data to see if those fixes are solving the problem or not. And then...

Based on that, we move towards the design and again, we create all the assets necessary for development. Plus we also create something like a design system that developers can use to actually speed up the development time because everything is standardized and you just have, can, they can quite easily replicate whatever they need from that.

Michael Bernzweig (08:49.302)
Makes sense. And then, you know, it sounds like, like the product journey when you're, starting to work with a new client is, and you don't have to mention a client in particular, but is there a particular project that you're particularly proud of that you can share with our audience?

Daniel (09:05.962)
Yeah, we had a really good collaboration with a pre-seed startup in the AI space at the beginning of the year. And they went through a very similar set of also challenges and solutions. They had kind of the same problems and they started to grow. They were thinking about moving towards a product-led growth kind of movement or at least speed up the onboarding of the new customers that they get into the product. They had issues

with customer feedback, like customers complaining about the product that's like not, it doesn't look professional or if it's not quite easy to use or they can find some of the features they were looking for. That was some of the main issues. Plus, churn wasn't a big problem for them, but because they were doing a lot of sales manually and they were onboarding people manually,

But what they mentioned is that even if when they were doing that, people still couldn't figure out the product at the end. So it started to be a pressure on the founders doing a lot of training and handholding for the customers instead of the product doing that side. Plus it might be also a bottleneck in the growth scene, like how you grow something that you actually have to onboard each customer one-on-one.

This is a pattern that we saw in another project as well that we had last year when they wanted to grow in, like they were based in Romania and based in Romania. They were based in Romania and they wanted to move towards like Eastern, Western European countries. So Western European countries and to expand, but the product was just not there. And what they mentioned is like, look, we want to grow, but we're not sure how to do it on the product side.

Michael Bernzweig (10:48.097)
Okay.

Daniel (10:58.254)
And also we don't have actual trust that the product it's good enough for what customers will expect. And from these things, what we usually end up doing, it's quite similar. So again, we try to collect the feedback as fast as possible and as many as possible to understand the context. This is how we actually split up the projects as well, as we usually call it context mapping, creating and testing solutions and design. So in the context mapping side,

Michael Bernzweig (11:04.536)
Makes sense.

Daniel (11:27.428)
We collect whatever is available. So if they have analytics, we check analytics. If they have a hot jar or something similar that we can take a look into, then we do that. Most of them, because the products are already on the market for some time, they usually have some kind of user feedback, even if it's not centralized in one point. Or at least we can have access to some of the customers. So we have some discussions with them and collect feedback from them to see how they are using the product.

Michael Bernzweig (11:47.406)
Sure.

Daniel (11:57.122)
what's working in the product for them, what's not working, what kind of issues they have with the product, or if there is anything that's missing and it would be very helpful for them. We try as much as possible to also look for people that use the product but are not using the product anymore. Those are a bit challenging to get on a phone call or a Zoom call, but exactly.

Michael Bernzweig (12:19.552)
Yeah, to find out maybe why they churned and what the challenges were.

Daniel (12:24.226)
A lot of times that's the most valuable feedback that you can get, but it's not easy to actually gather it because you have to find those people and convince them to come on a call with you after they left you. So it might be a bit more challenging.

Michael Bernzweig (12:34.06)
Makes sense, makes sense. Yeah. And so it sounds like a lot of the organizations you're working with are at the point where they've, you know, gone through that bootstrap stage. They've started to find some product market fit and they've grown to a point where they're trying to optimize, trying to get the right UI UX, you know, optimize for conversions, know, minimize churn, all of, all of that is a pretty accurate. So.

Daniel (12:48.633)
Mm-hmm.

Daniel (13:01.644)
Yeah, yeah, it's kinda like that.

Michael Bernzweig (13:04.921)
And are a lot of these organizations in specific regions of the world or do you have customers all over?

Daniel (13:14.0)
we have customers all over the world. We work with companies from US, from Europe, from even from India. We had some, clients as well. So yeah, we can do the workshops wherever we need it. It's remote. Everything is remote. So it's not a big problem.

Michael Bernzweig (13:28.303)
Got it, got it. And I know we were chatting before the podcast. sounds like you've been very involved in mentoring and a of other organizations to help early stage finder founders get on the right track. Is that something you've been very proud of?

Daniel (13:46.39)
Yeah, I really like to work with 30 stage founders. There is a couple of things. One of them is that you can give back some of your knowledge and it's also very helpful for you as well. But you can also see how different people think about solving problems because that's what they are doing in the end. They try to solve problems and build businesses.

And you can see what's out there, what new products are out there, what new products might emerge, what are the new trends. So in a way, it grounds you in this whole scene. And some of them end up being clients. That's even better.

Michael Bernzweig (14:24.334)
Got it, got it. So when you obviously have worked on many, many projects over the past decades, from where you sit, do you see some common challenges across organizations in terms of UX design?

Daniel (14:42.938)
Yeah, there are a couple of them. It depends on the founding team, I would say, at least here in Romania and Eastern Europe and probably Europe, I would say, at least from what I'm at. A lot of the founders are technical founders, so they are coming from a developer background. And sometimes they tend not to involve customers too early in the discussions, so they might try to skip steps.

like talking with customers or testing. And then they might end up in a very risky situation when they have basically one try to nail it and oftentimes it doesn't work out. And it's not just on the UX or UI side, it's on the product and business side. As long as you build something in a vacuum that you don't test, it's really hard to make sure that thing will work or at least even get the proper idea of that thing if it will work or not. So...

at least in the early stage founders that I talked with in the incubators. The main focus is around getting them out of the building or out from front of their laptops or wherever they stay and just talk with people and see if they have issues in this area, if they tried to solve those problems or not, and if they paid for similar solutions or not, because otherwise it might be quite challenging to convince them.

Michael Bernzweig (15:53.215)
Yep, yep.

Daniel (16:08.472)
And this is, would say, problem somewhat specific for a very early stage. If we move towards our clientele, that's slightly different because they already have a business in place, or at least they have some traction. As you mentioned, they are around the product market fit already. And they want to get on a somewhat growth trajectory. And they, what,

What is challenging in that situation is that they might, a lot of time they think that what helped them get to this point will actually scale to the next one. But for people that are around in the product scene for some time, we all know about the big chasm thing. And then you have those like innovators and early adopters, which are very open to risk most of the time, or they are very aware of their problem and they're actually looking for a solution and they accept.

some some corners to be cut and the solution not be like that fleshed out or I don't know not be the best thing but as long as it solves their problem it's good enough and then yeah and when when the early majority came they have a very different typology they are not risk open to risk they don't want weird thing to happen in their products they need something that's worked

Michael Bernzweig (17:16.452)
Makes sense.

Daniel (17:32.282)
that's working for their problem and it solves it well, but it's up to the standards of what products are out there nowadays. And the stuff that you didn't necessarily focused on in the beginning, like UX and UI and like, I don't know, user flows and stuff like this, it starts to be amplified because you start to add features and you start to have different type of customers in it and you have to onboard them in a different way and you have to make sure that...

the activation is happening and they understand the product because you won't stay near each of them to actually explain it one-on-one how the product works and how they should use it. So this is the type of customer that we usually end up working with.

Michael Bernzweig (18:16.216)
Now I know the whole world has these mobile devices. And obviously things have changed very quickly over the last decade. How do you focus your optimizations when thinking about desktop versus mobile versus tablet? I know it's a dilemma that was a big question mark years ago, but it seems now that the majority of traffic is on mobile. How do you balance all of that?

Daniel (18:19.874)
Yeah.

Mhm.

Daniel (18:45.53)
I would say it depends on use case. We try to look at the context of the product and how the product is used and the majority of users how and where they are using the product. In some cases, it might be mobile, so we have to optimize for mobile. But we worked on products that are heavily used on desktops or laptops as well, or even tablets. A few weeks ago, we had a product that was mostly used on tablets actually and displayed in stores to

create your own sofa as a 3D simulation of creating your own sofa. So we had to take in account that it's used on a tablet, nobody stays near you, the tablet is put near the sofa and you have to go there and create your own stuff. And then, yeah, it was quite cool. We loved it. And mobile, was like a second thought. phone size, was a second thought for that because we know from our customer that...

Michael Bernzweig (19:20.004)
Sure.

Michael Bernzweig (19:29.484)
That's pretty exciting.

Daniel (19:41.878)
mobile is not that used, it's more like we will send a link maybe to somebody and they can check it, but it's not to actually build out the sofa. The sofa will be built on a tablet. So this is why it's important to have that knowledge about the end customer and their context on how and when they use the product and on what device, because we optimize for that, especially when you have limited resources. when we talk like resources as time, money, development, resources and so on.

you try to make the most out of what you can and then you focus on the main activity and the main type of customer.

Michael Bernzweig (20:17.518)
So as you're working on different projects, do you find that clients have specific platforms that they are on and are tied to and want to stay with? Or do you typically try to advise them on the best platform or solution for where they're trying to get to? Or how do you bridge that question? Because I'm sure it comes up quite often.

Daniel (20:42.874)
platforms in which sense?

Michael Bernzweig (20:46.237)
in terms of the tech stack that they're using for their website or for their app or what have you.

Daniel (20:49.53)
Ciao!

Daniel (20:54.444)
It's usually not the conversation we had too much because it happens two things. Either they have a development team in-house and they take care of the tech stack and the platform side. And then we usually have a discussion with them to understand if there are any limitation that we should be aware of. So we don't create something that's not feasible for them to actually build, or it would take just too much time to build. then, you know, we have to be aware of that.

have a discussion with our client to see if they want to invest in it. Most of the time it's not, you know.

Michael Bernzweig (21:26.19)
Got it. So you're advising on the UI, the UX, the wireframes, the layout, the right flow, all of that. And then their development team is taking all of that and executing it. that the?

Daniel (21:32.354)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Daniel (21:41.75)
Yeah, we still stay around for like, still have connections with the development team. So it's not just, we send something over. We still have connections with the development team in the workshops. We actually like to have at least one developer around to see if there is anything that we should be aware of it. If they, I know sometimes the best ideas came from them actually, when we draft solutions. So we prefer to have a mixed of, of roles and.

Michael Bernzweig (21:49.613)
Right.

Daniel (22:11.542)
knowledge in the room when we start to discuss possible ideas and possible solutions. But tech stack, it's usually not something that we account for. We have the discussion just for the developers to make sure that what we create, it's something they can build and it fits the budgets and the timeline.

Michael Bernzweig (22:21.667)
Mix.

Michael Bernzweig (22:29.944)
Well, it sounds like you've been around the block a few times and you've seen all of the different areas that can become roadblocks and you understand how to get things done, working with a lot of stakeholders.

Daniel (22:34.081)
yeah.

Daniel (22:40.834)
Yeah, yeah, but as I mentioned, we try to mix this. Though my background is in product design, UX, UI stuff, I have good knowledge on the product side. So I try to mix all these things together. And though we don't have the discussion around what text to use, we have discussions throughout, road mapping and how to prioritize several features or how to test some ideas and stuff like this.

And for all of these, we like to have developers involved because it's very important to have these discussions of can we build this or not? Do you have the knowledge in-house to do it or not? The technology does have any limitations or not. Sometimes it has. Sometimes we build on top of something that's existing. So we have to be aware of the limitations there.

And for all of these, it's good to know about these challenges in the beginning instead of like at the end, then you have to redo everything or make big changes.

Michael Bernzweig (23:41.476)
So what is the typical first challenge or problem that a client may come to you with that they're looking to solve? Maybe it's not the ultimate problem that needs to be focused on, but what do you see initially when a client first comes to your doorstep? What are they thinking?

Daniel (24:01.902)
That's a good question because we actually run a jobs to be done interview with our clients some weeks ago just to find exactly this point. What they were looking for actually when they came to us to have an understanding of how they phrase it and what they are thinking about. Some of them came specifically for the design side.

So it was, we need somebody to help us with design. And that's the only thing that they were thinking about. But that usually happened when somebody else told them, hey, you should look through this and go talk with a UX designer. Others came because they were mentioning that they were having some retention problems. And this is how they usually phrase it. people start churning. So.

we have to fix something in the user flow. don't know what. And there was the other group that they just wanted to build the first version of the product, and they needed somebody to actually design everything and prepare the assets for developers. But these are, I would say, the third and the smallest group as

Michael Bernzweig (25:16.194)
Makes sense. And as far as maybe a project that you worked on over the years where the UX design really improved the user engagement, did you have a particular project that comes to mind that was like a favorite where you kind of saw the before and after and it made such a huge difference that it was amazing?

Daniel (25:39.33)
I usually follow up with customers. I started to do this more regularly. And it was also part of the jobs to be done form that I sent over and the discussions that we had. So we had reports on churn going down after launching a redesign of a product with 5 to 10%.

Michael Bernzweig (25:45.699)
Sure.

Daniel (26:01.262)
or some of the customers sent over screenshots of the feedback that they got from their customers, how much they love the new design, and now they can find everything and they can use the product and so on. So we can see these improvements in two stages, I would say. One of, or the effects of them. One of them is straight...

in the prototyping part because we actually test the prototypes with the end customers. And it's quite easy to see if something is improved or not straight there. And it means straight there, it means in a couple of weeks, usually two to three weeks. And then we can double check this after it's developed. Now, usually you don't really get the statistics after it's developed, but what we got is mostly quality feedback from our customers.

as I mentioned, feedback from their customers and users, which appreciated the new design or the improved user flows, feedback from stakeholders from the company in some cases when we help them to navigate some very weird user flows and launching a new feature, or helping the team to get on the same page on how to solve some of the challenges they had regarding the user flows and launching features or actually a new product.

This kind of stuff. I usually don't have a lot of numbers and that's on me. I'm not a, for me, it's really hard to say that we impacted that too much because it's a team effort. work with our clients. They have to deliver their part. We have to deliver our parts. It would be unfair for me to say, we've done X amount of improvement. It's everybody.

Michael Bernzweig (27:40.91)
Right.

Michael Bernzweig (27:52.128)
Right, because you're one component of the overall final solution, which makes sense.

Daniel (27:55.886)
Yep, I'm there. help facilitate the discussions. I help come up with some ideas. We come up on our side with ideas. We come up with some hypothesis. We want to test those hypothesis. But you can go with the client in the end. From my perspective, it's the client's call if or what route they want to go. So I'm there to help you and eventually give you some perspective and help design and stuff.

But it's a team effort in the end. That's how the product matter.

Michael Bernzweig (28:28.418)
Makes a lot of sense. So when startups come to you and they're looking to, I guess I would say improve their product discovery, how do you advise them? And is that an area that you help them with in terms of figuring out where to position their product to get the most traction? Or is that kind of outside of the scope of UI UX?

Daniel (28:58.362)
Sometimes we help them to better understand. We don't work on the value prop in itself, but we help to understand what their customers are saying about the product, what are the problems they are saying that they use the product for. So in a way, we collect all the information, we just don't draft the value prop.

Michael Bernzweig (29:20.58)
So, and just kind of a little follow up to that, do you find a lot of companies go to market without having done adequate market research to understand what problem they're solving for and if they should build a solution, they kind of come to you a little further down the pike than they should have?

Daniel (29:24.09)
Mm-hmm.

Daniel (29:46.936)
I would say, definitely. At least the people that I met, definitely yes. A lot of times it's like, we built this thing, now what do do with this? It's not like, we have this problem, how we solve the problem. It's more like, we have this solution, now somebody has to sell it and like, how we do this? And in a way it makes sense. Like a lot of people that I meet in different incubators, they are coming from a developer background. So they know how to code.

good at what they are doing, but they lack the other perspective of a marketer or a salesperson or a business person or so on. And some step up.

Michael Bernzweig (30:26.606)
So having a solid business proposition is probably the most important component. And then you can iterate around that. But if you don't have the right foundational idea, that's going to make it hard.

Daniel (30:33.626)
Yeah.

Daniel (30:41.134)
Like in the end you want to build a business, it's not you sell the code, you sell a business. It involves code in this specific business, but it's still a business.

Michael Bernzweig (30:51.19)
So you must see projects coming to a start and a finish all the time. How do you measure the success of a project as you deliver it?

Daniel (31:02.042)
For us, it's client feedback, their customer feedback. We collect grades from our clients' customers or users when we test all the stuff with them, like the prototypes and we ask questions and do the interviews. We collect some grades to see how the new solution works and if it's working better than the old one and if they find it useful or not for their specific problem.

All that information goes back to the founders or the teams that we work with. But in the end, it's our customer feedback that's the best thing that we can get. If that's positive, if our client is pleased with the work, is pleased with the outcome, and they also are trusting that what they have to do next will get them to what they are looking for, and they come back after that.

I don't know if you can find anything better. For me that's the-

Michael Bernzweig (32:04.206)
Yeah, now that makes a lot of sense. I'll wrap up by asking something that I think you're in a very unique position to share with our audience. Obviously, sitting where you sit, you have a very unique view of UI and UX and the whole field. What trends do you see from where you sit happening over the next several years in the field?

Daniel (32:32.078)
Ooh, that's a tough one. Because everything is changing now with the AI stuff. it's easier and easier to create products, right? It's easier to use libraries and patterns and templates and so on to create products. And I guess we saw a lot of new AI tools launched and actually killed in the last year. But there are a couple of things that still stay true, I would say.

Michael Bernzweig (32:38.222)
Sure.

Daniel (33:02.426)
And whatever the pattern is, we can talk UI patterns if you want, but I usually don't geek out on that too much. I really like Airbnb, what they are doing with getting the new skeuomorphism back and stuff like that. Awesome. It looks awesome, honestly. But if you go past that and you move a bit towards the more UX and product and business case, there are a couple of things that are still true. We still need customers. We still have to understand their problems.

Michael Bernzweig (33:10.745)
Sure.

Daniel (33:31.096)
We still have to meet them where they are. We have to figure out how we create solutions that are working for them in their own context. And then we have to figure out how we are better than the competitors that are out there and how we will get those customers to use our product. And for all this to happen, you have to be around those people. This is why a lot of good founders that at least I end up working with, they are coming in a way...

from the same space for which they actually launch a product in the end, because they have a good understanding of the problem they want to solve. And in essence, the tool that you are creating is just a tool to solve the problem that you solve. As long as you know as much as possible about the problem, you have a good knowledge about the problem, it's way easier to find solutions for something like that than coming from outside the whole context and trying to solve something that you don't really know.

Michael Bernzweig (34:30.04)
Makes a lot of sense. Well, I really appreciate your time on the episode today. think we covered a lot of ground there. I think a lot of unique perspectives that will resonate with the entire community. on the podcast today, we've had Daniel Andor over at Duran, and I'll be sure that our team leaves a link in the show notes for anyone that would like to reach out. And thank you so much for joining us today.

Daniel (35:00.068)
Thank you, was awesome.